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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Apr 1, 2008
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Nowadays when a pitcher gets his pitch count up into the area of 100 pitches, it's generally considered that he's at or near his limit. This has been the major cause of preventing pitchers from hurling complete games.
Last season, the Toronto Blue Jays led the ML's with 11 complete games. In 1936, Hall of Famer Bob Feller tossed 36 complete games.
Nolan Ryan threw 259 pitches in a game in 1974 that lasted 12 innings.
Retired players generally scoff at the idea that a major leaguer should throw only 100 pitches. "I used to have that many by the second inning," joked Sam McDowell, who pitched for the Indians from 1961 to 1971, winning 122 games and leading the league in strikeouts five times.
McDowell and another fireballer, Sonny Siebert, who threw a no-hitter for Cleveland in 1966, both said they had games in which they threw more than 200 pitches.
"I don't believe in taking a pitcher out unless he's in trouble," said Siebert. "If a guy is young and in shape, the number of pitches shouldn't be a problem."
Said McDowell: "The more you use a muscle, the stronger it gets."
So why have things changed so drastically in the last number of years? If azything, one would think that with todays workout regimen and exercises the pitchers should be able to throw even more pitches per game than the pitchers of years ago. Todays players generally are much stronger and fitter so what has made the philosophy of baseball change?
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Apr 1, 2008
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Bump! for the return of complete games.
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Apr 1, 2008
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The term "Quality start" was coined by John Lowe, the respected Detroit baseball writer. It means the pitcher lasted six innings with a yield of three runs or fewer.
Sandy Koufax, the great Hall of Fame pitcher, is among the former players who object.
"To me, a quality start," Koufax insists, "is when the starting pitcher is still on the mound when the game is over and his teammates rush out of the dugout to congratulate him on the victory."
Interesting how times have changed......
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Aug 15, 2006
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First and foremost, and in my humble opinion, you are one of the rising stars around this joint Steve. I very much enjoy your contributions, and I am sure many others do as well. I just wanted you to know, as I have been meaning to send you somehting like this for awhile now.
As for your question, I myself have posed it many times. I have yet to get an answer that satisfies me though ( including anything I can think of ).
I just can't quite imagine it would be both as broad and as easy as that people in general are less willing and able to endure pain and discomfort. The record books tell us what guys did, but they can't and never will be able to fully address what guys went through physically to pitch those 200 pitch games, or 300 innings per year.
Good luck to you in this thread, as I hope you do get an answer that satisfies.
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Apr 1, 2008
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First and foremost, and in my humble opinion, you are one of the rising stars around this joint Steve. I very much enjoy your contributions, and I am sure many others do as well. I just wanted you to know, as I have been meaning to send you somehting like this for awhile now.
You're making me blush!!! I've only been posting for a bit over a month, but have come to enjoy it immensely. There are posters on here who know 1000 times more baseball than I ever will, and I have therefore learned alot more about the minor leagues and other teams via the discussions. There's nothing like good 'ole baseball discussions.....
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:97
Level:Superstar
Since:Nov 27, 2006
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Steve,
The answer is simple, money. They spend way too much on these guys today and that is the ballclubs way of protecting their investment. When an owner has 60 or 70 million wrapped up in a guy than they want to make sure they get their money's worth.
I do find it annoying to be watching a guy throw a perfectly good game and get lifted so the 8th inning specialist can come in and then the closer to finish it off. But the game has changed since then. Actually there is another reason for ya. Bullpens have become a necessity.
It isn't that they can't throw that many pitches. It is that management doesn't want them too.
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Apr 1, 2008
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Steve,
The answer is simple, money. They spend way too much on these guys today and that is the ballclubs way of protecting their investment. When an owner has 60 or 70 million wrapped up in a guy than they want to make sure they get their money's worth.
While you're definitely correct that it's because of all the money the owners have invested in these pitchers, I still don't understand why things have changed.
Nolan Ryan pitched 332 innings in 1974 and nothing happened to him. The next year he worked 326 innings. Last season, the ML leader in innings pitched was C.C. Sabathia with 241 IP.
Many pitchers used to throw the innings Ryan did and never got injured, yet nowadays we have all the arm injuries even with the pitch counts.
But the game has changed since then. Actually there is another reason for ya. Bullpens have become a necessity.
That's what I don't understand. The bullpens have only become a necessity as a result of the pitch counts. There would not have been a need for a Mariano Rivera 50 years ago, and that's why I believe relievers can now make the HOF. The main arguement against it is that historically relievers haven't made the HOF. But since the bullpens have become a major component of an effective pitching staff, I believe we will begin to see more relievers get inducted.
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:98
Level:Superstar
Since:Apr 4, 2008
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I'm certainly no expert in this matter, but I've heard that the slider and the split finger fastball do create a torque in a pitcher's delivery that probably risks injury more than say your basic fastball, curveball, change-up pitcher. That may have alot to do with why so many pitchers experience arm trouble and are on and off the DL so often. Its quite possible the Ryan just came from a better gene pool than everyone else as he's just a freak of nature. Ryan also didn't mess around with sliders and split fingers either.
Also in the day of the 6 and 7 innings starts we see today, I believe pitchers are putting more maximum effort into their pitching than pitchers of the past. Back in the day of many complete games, pitchers were of the mindset that they were going to pitch at least nine innings that day and paced themselves accordingly.
Thats my input...what do you think? I also second bigd's compliment to you Steve
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Pitch Counts....Why Has It Changed???
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Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Apr 1, 2008
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I'm certainly no expert in this matter, but I've heard that the slider and the split finger fastball do create a torque in a pitcher's delivery that probably risks injury more than say your basic fastball, curveball, change-up pitcher. That may have alot to do with why so many pitchers experience arm trouble an | |
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